| March 2015 |
March
2014
| ||||
| Wk 1 | Wk 2 | Wk 3 | Wk 4 | ||
| Unconditional Sales | 132 |
307
| 491 |
575
| |
| New Listings | 396 | 707 | 1040 |
1286
| |
| Active Listings | 3562 | 3633 | 3693 |
4050
| |
| Sales to New Listings |
33%
| 43% | 47% |
45%
| |
| Sales Projection | -- | 675 | 720 | ||
| Months of Inventory |
7.0
| ||||
Last time we had over 700 sales in march was 5 years ago at 789. Before that it was 2007 (833 sales). So not a hot market yet (that would be between 800 and 900 sales with an inventory of half of what we have now) but decent. Enough to draw the bulls out of the woodwork at least.
338 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 338 of 338"Where you really make or lose money with a home is with appreciation/depreciation on leveraged money"
Agreed, but only over the short term - if you pay off the mortgage the leverage goes away, so do the leveraged gains.
@ Leo - I left investing out because most people that do it have "house money" set aside that they prefer to keep available for a house so the opportunity cost on that cash is virtually nil with interest rates where they are, not the stock market return or any other decent return for that matter.
If you are going to buy a house anyway (meaning you have committed to a relationship where there is absolute certainty that acquiring a socially desirable house at some point is guaranteed), buying when money is cheap and the market has sat for the better part of a decade looks pretty good to me.
Also, you didn't factor in any house appreciation into your analysis which I would think is probably more likely than getting return on money sitting in a cash account waiting for the right time to buy. You can invest that cash but that isn't the sort of risk I like to take with money destined for short term spending
@ Totoro - as you said, the main element in a rent or buy decision is what you think will happen in the stock market and what will happen in the housing market - leveraged but modest appreciation versus potentially more aggressive appreciation on a unleveraged basis.
To me, Victoria looks like it's in a decent place to hold value and at the very least break even on an acquisition over the next 5 years. If values start on their way up again, well then housing will be a clear winner over 5 years.
To add another log to the fire, real estate is 30% off if you are spending anything other than $CAD.
Like I said - I am not expecting anything explosive over the next 5 years but if one has to buy (as I do at some point) the timing looks pretty good: Cheap Money for 5 years, flat housing prices going back almost 10 that have stayed there amidst some of the most aggressive and anti-RE CMHC policy changes and interest rate decreases in history, weaker economy to keep rates in check, high rents in the 3+bedroom rental market.
Your results may differ, but I think there are a number of folks out there who see the city the same way I do...which might explain the recent flourish of activity.
If you ever are forced to move out of a rental, you will understand the motivation to buy. There is never a good time to be forced to move with 2 months' notice (no, this wasn't in BC; not sure on the local renter laws regarding notice). Once bitten, that's worth a fair bit in the 'rent vs buy' calculations.
I suppose you could say the same (the opposite) for discovering that your attic is full of asbestos, or that there's a rotten oil tank buried in your yard, but those are more avoidable with some due diligence.
Why give the bank that 10% right now? Save it yourself and earn 7-10% from it and pay off your mortgage in a lump sum later if so desired. Bank still gets most of their interest on that 12 years anyway. Maybe you can save enough to be able to pay it off in ten years at that renewal so the bank gives you their preferred rate to keep the mortgage. Now you are in control....
Rent vs Buy?
An important aspect of this ongoing debate is often overlooked, and that is the cumulative effect of making additional annual mortgage payments of up to 10% of the mortgaged amount. Most banks allow these annual payments without penalty.
If these extra payments are made annually, then your mortgage will be paid off in about 12 years or less.
Owning a house without a mortgage is as close to living rent-free as you'll ever get. And, if you have a small basement suite, then your renters will be paying your property taxes and maintenance costs.
So, a bit of pain for one decade gives you several decades of living rent-free while enjoying home-ownership and being rewarded with typical house value appreciation.
In a borderless world adding 3 million millionaires per year, ownership in Victoria will always cost far more than renting. As it will in Auckland, Honolulu…
Why? Two simple reasons. Wealthy folks want to live here and land supply is limited.
I concur, you buy when it's right for you.
This blogg is more about informing buyers and sellers beyond the everyday rhetoric.
And the message so far this year is that the market, for houses in the core, is heavily weighted towards sellers.
If you're a prospective buyer knowing that, for the better properties, you're likely to be entering a potential bidding war would be important information. Being aware that the final price may be over market value. And that there is always a possibility that the person that overbid may not be able to complete on the sale. Then you may have a second chance to bid when the property comes back onto the market. Or if you're putting in a back up offer that bid doesn't have to be over market value too.
That the premium may be gone six months from now. That premium is amortized over 25 years causing you to pay a higher mortgage payment and more interest. And will result in a lower net profit when it is time to sell.
I left investing out because most people that do it have "house money" set aside that they prefer to keep available for a house so the opportunity cost on that cash is virtually nil with interest rates where they are, not the stock market return or any other decent return for that matter.
Sure, although 5 years I would argue is a long period of time to hold on to the cash so you can invest it in the meantime.
If you are going to buy a house anyway (meaning you have committed to a relationship where there is absolute certainty that acquiring a socially desirable house at some point is guaranteed), buying when money is cheap and the market has sat for the better part of a decade looks pretty good to me.
Yep. Essentially what led us to buy. Waited for the market to derisk and when it did we bought in. Also waited until we could buy a house we could stay in 20+ years.
but those are more avoidable with some due diligence.
Due diligence will also avoid being forced out of a rental in most cases. Try not to rent from amateur landlords. Try not to rent from people who tried to sell their house but couldn't. Call some references. Ask how long they've been in the business. Rent from companies when possible.
Generally you will be kicked out when the owner wants to sell, so determine their motivations ahead of time. Not always possible but usually you can figure this out.
Land has been limited on Earth for the last 6.5 billion years. What you're alluding to is appropriately zoned land is limited.
All that's necessary is to rezone land in the Agricultural Land Reserve or expand sewers or blast an entire mountain side in Langford. Or even build up instead of out.
When it comes to density Victoria doesn't pack a lot of people into a small area such as Hong Kong or Manhattan. We have lots of space to grow.
As for millionaires coming to Victoria to retire. They always have come to Victoria. And they aren't bidding on the average home. That they buy a 5 million dollar home in Ardmore isn't going to have any effect on your bachelor suite on Fort Street.
An important aspect of this ongoing debate is often overlooked, and that is the cumulative effect of making additional annual mortgage payments of up to 10% of the mortgaged amount.
Let's ask around how many new home owners have a spare $50k lying around every year.
But that's beside the point. The return from you paying off your mortgage early is your mortgage rate (plus some to account for it being after tax dollars). So if your mortgage is 2.75% then paying it off is the same as earning 2.75% in your TFSA. i.e. not a good return overall.
The emotional argument (live in a mortgage free house) is a strong one, but you will very likely be better off not paying it off quickly at these rates.
Why? Two simple reasons. Wealthy folks want to live here and land supply is limited.
Rents go up in desirable areas along with prices. When they diverge a lot is when you should get cautious.
Even a mortgage free home has monthly costs associated with ownership. Your costs don't go to zero when you pay off the mortgage.
I suspect the typical half million dollar home in Victoria has annual taxes and maintenance costs of about $500 a month. Then there are replacement costs such as a $750 hot water tank every 7 years, $15,000 roof every 20 years, thermal windows another $15,000 every 20 years, cabinets, plumbing, floor coverings, appliances etc.
Then when you're about to sell a complete remodeling at $50,000 to $100,000 in order to get your best price.
The only one that truly makes money on a house is the bank.
@ Leo M
Without considering catastrophic events, there are only two situations that will cause interest rates to increase [and house prices to decline].
Agreed, but catastrophic events are almost infinitely varied and mostly unpredictable: for example, mistakes at the Fed, war in the Persian Gulf, a new recession in Canada looming right before an election (Who would have predicted such bad economic management as that? Yet GDP did contract in the last quarter.), etc.
But the result is clear: house prices are unstable. For example, in 1998, US and Canadian house prices were about 5.1 times GDP per capita. From 2000 to 2005 US house prices rose to 6.4 times GDP per capita, reflecting Greenspan's loose money policy. Then, following 17 consecutive Fed funds rate increases, US house prices slumped to 4.6 times per capita GDP in 2010.
In Canada, we've had a less uneven interest rate environment, the trend being continually downward, with the result that since 2000 house prices have continued to levitate, and have now reached well over 7 times GDP per capita, which raises the question: how can anyone go wrong betting on ever increasing Canadian home prices!
I was going to end that rhetorical question in conventional fashion with a question mark, but then decided that the option provided by Just Jack of an exclamation mark was a better idea.
What has been consistent and therefore apparently predictable is a more or less continuous rise in nominal GDP per capita, which presumably drives a general increase in house prices, which means if you hold long enough you'll likely get back what you put into a house.
But will the trend in nominal GDP per capita go on forever. With most jobs automated out of existence in the next several decades, could we be about to embark on a complete transformation in way of life including forms of shelter and means of financing them?
Assuming no interest rate changes... Early payments on 400k @2.75% to polish off the mortgage in 12 years will be an extra $1400/month. Interest paid is in that case is 70k vs $106k (interest over 12 years on 25 year amor) out of a total of 152k over the 25 years. $1400 @ 7% annually over 12 years is $314.5k. @ 3% it's $241k. Mortgage balance if no extra payments after 12 years is 241k. The math is a little tweaked since the 30k interest savings is in there so its actually more like earning 5% isn't it? Still, save the money yourself and pay off the mortgage after 12 years you will have 73.5k left. You are 37.5k ahead. You will be further ahead though to keep the mortgage at this point and keep your money invested. You will pay 46k in interest for the remaining 13 years while your $314.5k will grow to $780k @ 7% over those 13 years. Up $419.5k.... Is my math wrong on this?
It's the last day of the month and there are over 1,300 listings for rent on Craigslist.
I suspect that number to go up as the tenants who have bought give their notice.
Ironic in a way that new buyers that were tenants are vacating their basement suites are now buying homes with basement suites in order to make their mortgage payments.
and the people they are buying from are moving into their old basement suites as they wait for the market to fall to buy back in....
@dasmo @LeoM
You both have good points about the pros/cons of paying off a mortgage early.
With my mortgage, I have chosen to pay it off quickly while rates are low and my kids are young. That way, when I'm living "rent free" I'll be able to afford better family vacations, renovations for the house, more for investments, etc. I've been using the the "short term pain for long term gain" strategy.
* "rent free" is still about $5000/year for property taxes, insurance and (very) basic upkeep.
@Just Jack
It's the last day of the month and there are over 1,300 listings for rent on Craigslist. ... Ironic in a way that new buyers that were tenants are vacating their basement suites are now buying homes with basement suites in order to make their mortgage payments.
Chances are that it's just students giving their "one month notice" with university/college courses finishing in the next few weeks.
Jack says,
“When it comes to density Victoria doesn't pack a lot of people into a small area such as Hong Kong or Manhattan. We have lots of space to grow.”
-----
Get real Jack,
Victoria and Oak Bay have no space to grow since we are obviously surrounded by water. Take a look at cities of similar size as Victoria and see if you can tell why they too have higher ratios. We’ll use income ratios since they are readily available. You should be able to quickly see the development constraint that also happens to make us so desirable.
Plymouth UK 7.3
Tauranga NZ 6.8
Victoria 6.7
Santa Cruz US 8.6
State parks form part of the land constraints for this last one.
>> Victoria and Oak Bay have no space to grow
Of course there's plenty space to grow, just not for single family houses.
Except for the difficulty of navigating all those individual private owners and zoning and OCPs that are in the way.... It would come down to economics at that point anyway.... raising OakBay for condos will not be a solution to affordability. It might be one to profitability one day....
I can't argue with any of the facts posted regarding the pros and cons of paying off a mortgage early. All I can say is that it's easy to do in 12 years if you have a suite as a mortgage helper. I used the Android App from CanadianMortgageApp.com for the calculations, so I think it's right when I estimated 12 years of additional payments. The extra payments are basically $10,000 from suite rental plus $10,000 from the owners. I've done it several times, so I know it is feasible for a working couple.
In my 50+ years involved with real estate in Victoria and having many friends who started buying real estate when we did, I can say from decades of experience that stock-investors and bank-account-savers have a very low percentage who follow-through and pay-off their mortgages early. As the Irish say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The sad truth is that I know several people my age who have had a mortgage for 45 years and still owe 60+% of the house value because they use their home as an ATM machine and withdraw thousands at every renewal.
But on the other hand, people who diligently made extra payments year after year, had their mortgage paid-off years early and then enjoyed a rent-free life; often with a suite paying their property taxes and maintenance, as I mentioned earlier.
In fact I've only known one person who was a successful stock investor for his whole adult life; he made a couple million by admitting he knew nothing about investing and trusted a great stock broker who only bought quality stocks with dividends. Unfortunately the poor guy died wealthy - he never spent a dime other than one yearly four week vacation.
I like the idea of being mortgage-free, but I also think it's smart to diversify and that with mortgage rates so low, it would be a wasted opportunity to pay it down too quickly. Why pay off debt at 3.66% when I can hopefully make 7%+? So I have instead raised my mortgage payments by 5%, am aggressively paying off my $13k LOC (all on 0.99% MBNA at the moment) and researching ETFs and Canadian Couch Potato. I'm going to start a spreadsheet and make a mock portfolio and see how I do in the time it takes me to pay off MBNA.
And yes, I also think the banks will be more lusty at renewal time if I have investments. Twelve to fifteen years is a long time to start waiting to put money aside.
I think focusing SOLELY on paying off the mortgage is akin to putting all your eggs into one basket. Of course if interest rates start going up, then I would rethink my strategy. But as for right now, I don't want to just "eliminate debt" - I want to "create wealth".
Oh I'd like to add that I am on track to paying off the mortgage by the age of 55 as it currently stands.
As for that Dolly person, her posts are on the other page so I can't easily quote her, but she doesn't sound like she's been a homeowner very long. She is looking at the market with some VERY rose-coloured glasses! Why she believes a 650k house will go for 725k in 5 years "just because" makes no sense. I could just as easily say that the 650k house will only be worth 575k in 5 years. No one knows what the future holds, ESPECIALLY in such a short time frame. The tricky thing about averages, is that you need to stick with it for a long time in order to agree with them. Same goes with investment returns, house values, etc.
@leoM
The extra payments are basically $10,000 from suite rental plus $10,000 from the owners.
You are absolutely correct that paying off a mortgage early is a great way to go. Unfortunately, many couples don't have the extra $10K/year to pay towards their mortgage. That said, when interest rates are higher (> 6%) the difference between paying off early versus 25 years is even more significant - due to the interest compounding on itself.
@CuriousCat
Why pay off debt at 3.66% when I can hopefully make 7%+?
It's all about cash flow. Paying off mortgage debt sooner can mean an extra $2000+ per month (that would have being going towards a mortgage) now being used for investments and lifestyle and home improvements. I've wondered myself about investing more and paying less on my mortgage (particularly with the current low interest rates). It's just that this strategy postpones a "high cash flow" situation during (hopefully) my best earning years.
After seeing my father buying a house in Victoria when he was 38 and paying it off 25 years later when he was 62 - I was convinced that when I bought a house, I would pay it off as quickly as was reasonable. Instead of 25 years, I've been able to pay off my mortgage in 13 years.
@CuriousCat
Twelve to fifteen years is a long time to start waiting to put money aside.
Agreed. I have still been investing in RRSPs, TFSAs and RESPs. I just haven't been saving as much as I could if I were mortgage-free. Perhaps it's because I purchased a modest 25-year old house in an affordable neighbourhood (rather than an new "executive home") that I can still afford to invest and pay off my mortgage quickly?
It's all about living within your means ... which from your postings it seems like you are certainly doing!
Unfortunately I see a lot of fellow generation-X's and boomers living well beyond their means with an ever-increasing pit of debt. Anyone remember the movie: The Money Pit (1986)?
Filling in order of
Emergency fund
Consumer debt
RRSP and TFSA (or vice versa)
RESP/RDSP if applicable
Mortgage
Seems to be a reasonable compromise if you don't want to get too far into investing in taxable accounts while you have your mortgage.
Someone in Sooke is selling a Lamborghini Gallardo. Wow.
Paying off the mortgage early may make psychological sense for you, which is a big thing, but it certainly does not make financial sense if you would invest the money otherwise and not just spend it.
It is not simply "all about cash flow" - it has nothing to do with cash flow. If you are putting your money into the mortgage now you have less "cash flow" now to invest otherwise.
Rates are so low for mortgages you can, with low risk, make more on your money by investing than you will save in interest costs by paying it down.
In addition, if you have a suite you can deduct the interest based on a floor space calculation. You lose on this as the mortgage gets paid down.
If rates go up in future it might make financial sense to take some of your invested capital and pay down the mortgage, but right now it does not.
If you choose to pay down your mortgage faster I think it is fine, but it is not "a great way to go" if you are referring to financials. In fact, by paying down your mortgage faster you are significantly reducing your return on your invested capital.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/02/24/pay-down-the-mortgage-or-invest-more-a-winwin-question/
This is the second highest volume of sales in the last decade for houses in the core districts. Only in 2007 were there more house sales.
Number of Sales
Month 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
Jan 134 118 125 91 105
Feb 170 202 176 127 156
Mar 220 245 208 176 214
Apr 214 248 211 217 228
Month 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015
Jan 88 98 72 90 89
Feb 132 133 107 125 164
Mar 180 177 146 150 226
Apr 151 174 199 216
Millennials aren't interested in the burbs. Neither are the boomers anymore....
Wed Apr 1, 2015 8:15am:
Mar Mar
2015 2014
Net Unconditional Sales: 734 575
New Listings: 1,448 1,286
Active Listings: 3,769 4,050
Please Note
Left Column: stats for the entire month from this year
Right Column: stats for the entire month from last year
This information comes from the latest 'Monthly Comparative Activity By Property Type' Report
And house listings were, in the Victoria Core, lowest since 2008.
Active Listings
Mth 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
Jan 166 240 266 620 408
Feb 198 240 260 639 523
Mar 252 294 275 657 640
Apr 282 305 339 664 780
Mth 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015
Jan 521 626 648 579 493
Feb 606 685 724 651 567
Mar 702 768 793 718 626
Apr 790 852 838 815
And the Months of Inventory again for the core districts. The lowest since 2008.
Month 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
Jan 1.24 2.03 2.13 6.81 3.89
Feb 1.16 1.19 1.48 5.03 3.35
Mar 1.15 1.20 1.32 3.73 2.99
Apr 1.32 1.23 1.61 3.06 3.42
Month 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015
Jan 5.92 6.39 9.00 6.43 5.54
Feb 4.59 5.15 6.77 5.21 3.46
Mar 3.90 4.34 5.43 4.79 2.75
Apr 5.23 4.90 4.21 3.77
Historically, the chart shows that in the last decade we haven't shot from a strong sellers market to a buyers market in a month.
That would suggest that April will likely be a continuation of March with short supply and above normal demand. For a buyer that means less choice and high prices in the core for at least another month.
Unless one of a thousand things happen that could change the market.
If there is one market that follows momentum it's real estate.... Could the dollar have affected our market because all our app developers just got a 25% raise? Most of my clients pay in US so I am feeling the raise right now. I'm sprouting horns... I think right now I'm a horny halibut....
Certainly is a possibility in a small town like Victoria when 50 new buyers may change the market.
But not in Toronto and Vancouver.
If you had employees you wouldn't necessarily be passing the exchange rate windfall on, as the employees are paid in Canadian dollars.
Time for the employees to hit the boss up for a raise.
@dasmo
Could the dollar have affected our market because all our app developers just got a 25% raise?
Although Victoria has a solid IT sector (particularly for its' relatively small population) - Victoria is a first and foremost a "government town". There are about 27,500 employees working for the some level of government or in education. All these employees are getting paid in Canadian dollars.
11,000 provincial government
4500 Canadian Forces members
4000 federal government
4100 teachers and school staff (districts #61 and #63)
2000 UVic staff
1000 municipal staff
900 Camosun staff
I suspect IT has a high turn over rate of employees. In that way if their were a lot of new self employed IT workers that could have an impact.
It isn't that the demand has skyrocketed to a tidal wave of buyers. Just that relative to the low number of listings there has likely been an effect on prices and certainly an affect on buyers.
Exactly... It's the owners of the app companies buying in the core not their employees.
Also, anyone with US assets just got a 25% boost in value... This could also play into prices.
I can't envision why a significant number of house owners in the core would suddenly want to list their homes for sale.
I suspect most of the home owners on this blogg will never sell their homes. And will either be carried out feet first, become divorced or moved to a care facility.
But what about all those investment properties? That second house or third condominium. What would make you want to sell these surplus properties?
Age might be one. There comes a time that you don't want to paint and repair the property every time a renter leaves. You're just too damn old.
The other might be the need for lots of cash. A better financial opportunity comes your way.
Maybe be a loss of employment or illness.
Another may be panic. If property values start to decline you may want out.
Or maybe we'll just go the way the Western Communities has been with slowing sales creating bigger inventory.
And if you happen to be a foreigner that has Canadian property - you just "lost" 20%.
For those who have been parking their cash in Canadian real estate for wealth preservation that is worrisome. Canada isn't as safe as they thought. Might be better to get out now when the dollar is 80 cents rather than wait until it's 60 cents.
Don't expect the Asian investor to follow western thoughts on investing. They're more concerned about wealth preservation rather than income or appreciation.
They just lost a fifth of their wealth.
Then there are replacement costs such as a $750 hot water tank every 7 years, $15,000 roof every 20 years, thermal windows another $15,000 every 20 years, cabinets, plumbing, floor coverings, appliances etc.
Unless your roof has a crazy slope and/or poor access it's going to cost around $5-7k, not $15k.
That's at $4 per square foot, which was quoted to me recently by a good roofing company.
We have a Forex forecaster on deck.
What if it's time for foreign money to make an extra 20% before our petrodollar goes back above par? Who says it's not ‘09 & ‘10 all over again?
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=CAD&to=USD&view=10Y
Ironic in a way that new buyers that were tenants are vacating their basement suites are now buying homes with basement suites in order to make their mortgage payments.
It's just smart.
Why she believes a 650k house will go for 725k in 5 years "just because" makes no sense. I could just as easily say that the 650k house will only be worth 575k in 5 years.
Owning a house asset is a gamble: its value can plummet, skyrocket, or anything in between.
My bet, my wager, is that houses in the core of Victoria, British Columbia, will always do well medium- and long-term.
Wow, 1268 McKenzie, which is assessed at $639,000, has just gone pending after 12 days for $985,000.
http://www.remax.ca/bc/victoria-real-estate/na-1268-mckenzie-st-na-wp_id113262921-lst/
Wow, for that lot size and location, the 2-bed suite at 1268 Mckenzie probably did its trick.
WRT someone posted earlier: "There is never a good time to be forced to move with 2 months' notice." For renters, the landlord can't just ask you to move out even if they sold the house, unless you signed a fixed term lease with no renew condition.
In BC, the renters with a month to month lease can only be asked to move if 1. the tenants broke the lease condition; 2. the house is in bad health condition; 3. the owner or their relative want to live in the place themselves.
For 3, not only the landlord must give two month notice, they also have to pay the tenants one month rent back as compensation, plus the tenants can give them 10 days notice to move out with the compensation.
e.g. the landlord noticed the tenants in June 1st that they need the place back for themselves (not to rent to another renter) by Aug 1st, then the tenants found another place on June 5th, and told the landlord that they would move out on June 15th. The tenants only have to pay the rent up to June 15th, and they should still receive one month rent back from the landlord as compensation. In this case, the landlord loses rent for half of June and July, plus extra month rent back to the tenants.
So in BC, the rental laws are on the renter side, use them wisely.
Well, that is mostly wrong.
If you sell your house and your tenants have a lease then a buyer will need to honour the terms of the lease.
There are, in my experience, no automatic rights of renewal on residential leases, only an option to request renewal. A landlord would be foolish to agree otherwise.
As far as month to month goes, a buyer can request vacant possession as a condition of the sale and under res ten laws the tenant will need two months' notice and one months' rent and they must leave.
Also, you can't give notice mid-month.
All this info is readily available on the res ten website.
correction - one month's not months'
The example I gave was what exactly happened to us, as owners of a rental house in Victoria a few years back, while a rental company acted as the landlord for us then. I didn't believe what the rental company told us (same as my example in my last post) and checked with RTB, and of course, they are correct. You can check it out RTB document in the link below (search for "10 days" and "one month's rent"):
http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/DownloadAsset?assetId=7534728F91F74AC7BFFB82EC9D68222B
We are landlord ourselves now, helping friends who are out of town. We are now members of BC landlord association.
Interesting Garth Turner quote:
" We’ve got 108,000 realtors now and only 60,000 workers in the oil and gas sector. In fact, we’ve allowed the real estate component of the economy to get bigger than all of manufacturing combined."
Obviously house prices have nowhere to go but up!
Yes, you are right about the way the notice to end tenancy works for the tenant. Sorry for stating it was mostly wrong because that part is right.
I don't find it unfair myself. There are costs to moving that are significant.
The part that was not included is that if you sell your home the buyer can request vacant possession and this is a reason to serve a notice to end tenancy.
The other part that is not usual is to have a tenant right to a lease renewal. This is not common for residential tenancies. It is more common for commercial tenancies for a number of reasons including the desire for long-term tenancies where there have been investments in leasehold improements.
Good point Just Jack on people not selling their homes.
I'm assuming no one is actually planning to use their house to pay for their care home. Though if you have kids, they appreciate the inheritance.
Also, how many people actually downsize? I'm guessing a lot who downsize get places that are smaller, but not necessarily cheaper?
Also JustJack, thanks for teaching us how to deal with cyber bullying
"The part that was not included is that if you sell your home the buyer can request vacant possession and this is a reason to serve a notice to end tenancy. "
Yep, this is what happened to me. It was in Seattle, on a month-to-month lease. The rooming house I was in was sold to a young family who requested vacant possession. With no prior plans to move, two months notice went by awfully quickly. Anyway, I bought a place 2 years later after a couple more (uneventful) moves.
Interesting Garth Turner quote:
" We’ve got 108,000 realtors now and only 60,000 workers in the oil and gas sector. In fact, we’ve allowed the real estate component of the economy to get bigger than all of manufacturing combined."
That is just a crazy number. That is one realtor for every 1/245 people in Canada. I mean super crazy.
I see realtors with PhDs, Masters, MBAs, Education, Healthcare etc...qualifications; from a government standpoint, something is seriously not right.
Realtors by nature are entrepreneurs and risk takers, why else would you want to start your own franchise? If Realtors got paid less (e.g. commissions); and those respected fields they came from had more opportunities, that might be better for our Canadian society as a whole. Last time I checked, agents really didn't create any GDP.
Not everyone is a superstar though. Lots of realtors starving; look @ Toronto for example. https://realtylab.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/graph-2.jpg
Sure lots of people think it is easy to make a buck in the industry, but only 5% make up 95% of the profits.
Paying off a mortgage is in this environmental is really all psychological.
Reminds of friends who use to brag about paying of their student loans early...my thought was always, why would you do that? The government had some sort of "millennium program," thing where they randomly took off $6,000 to $7,000 of my student loan debt in 2006-2008. Then when I did my masters I was able to apply for bursaries/scholarships that were dependent on having student loans and since I ended school I've been tax deducting the interest on my student loan. Realistically I could pay off my student loans on one month’s salary at this point but why?
Same with mortgages. Low 2s variables and I don't think 7% is an easy investment portfolio but 4% if achievable.
I see realtors with PhDs, Masters, MBAs, Education, Healthcare etc...qualifications; from a government standpoint, something is seriously not right.
I have a masters in health care admin from UBC...unfortunately in Victoria if you are motivated it is really hard to move up the ladder due to low turnover.
I couldn't even get interviews at VIHA (as a VIHA employee plus master degree) for jobs that pay less than 50% of what I make in real estate.
My only options really were move to Ontario (lots of opportunities in health care management) or quit VIHA and do something else. Wanted to definitely stay in Victoria so quit VIHA and healthcare altogether.
I think most people wouldn't last long in real estate. Works well for me as I enjoy real estate myself and the life style of working 7 days a week and going on one 4 week vacation to my homeland once a year works for me. I don't think most people would handle being called on Sunday at 9 am by a buyer wanting to view a place at 1 pm, followed by an open house 2 pm to 4 pm and then another showing at 5 pm and the buyer dragging out it until 6 pm Sunday :) and then following by someone at 9 pm Sunday not reading the listing description and calling to see if the condo has parking....why not email me?
That type of schedule is necessary if you want to be in the top 5% in real estate.
My plan is once I am settled in my new home is to slowly wean back how many buyers I work with at one time.
Right now is just brutal with buyers. Show 10 houses, get outbid on 11th, show 10 more, get outbid on 22nd, show 10 more...
Listings much much easier.
Vancouver average detached -
March 2015 - $1,406,426 or up 16.3% in a year!
March 2014 - $1,209,542
March 2013 - $1,176,642
@ Marko
No free lunch that's for sure.
Funny thing is they have Doctors driving Taxis in NYC...
What do I know?
Wrong graph, meant to post this:
https://realtylab.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/graph-1.jpg
A lot of realtors didn't sell any properties in Toronto.
The medical MJ gold rush in Van will fuel growth there....
Why have the benchmarks for condominium been gaining over houses? Are Zoomers scaling back already here and giving up their staircases ?
Times Colonist news
If I crunched those numbers right,
Hs 2.1%
Cs 5.3%
TownHs 0.5%
I suspect more newer condos changing hands has something to do with it.
I guess, although I thought that's why we started using the benchmark index for accuracy of price trends. At least that's what agents tell me. I'm also not sure all the new shoebox units would raise something like the benchmark.
About one in every four condo sales in the core last month were new or pre-construction.
The GST alone accounts for 5% not including rebates on new builds. And while the banks will lend including GST, fair market value excludes the tax.
When it comes to condos it's tricky figuring out what is going on in the market.
And as one developer controls the sale of so many units, the contract prices may or may not be at fair market value.
The GST alone accounts for 5% not including rebates on new builds. And while the banks will lend including GST, fair market value excludes the tax.
I had three clients re-sell at the Promontory. For example, one client purchased a unit for $230,000+GST (he factored in the GST when he purchased in relation to re-sale units). We re-sold the unit at $253,500.
One of my client approached me with this just a few days ago.
"So Marko, the one bedroom at the Era with parking is $296,900+GST, I will just wait until next year to buy a re-sale and then I won't have to pay GST."
Yea, only problem is the individual who paid $296,900+GST is going to be asking $330,000 on re-sale, so yes, you won't pay GST but you'll still pay more.
It's not like cars. If you buy a 60k BMW all in, the next day all you could probably get for it is 46-48k.
Victoria and Oak Bay have no space to grow
If Calgary had the same boundaries today as pre-WWII it would have "no space to grow" either.
Of course there would be just as much growth in the same places, they would just be suburban municipalities.
Point is municipal boundaries are just lines on the map, and the fact that municipality X among many is built up does not mean anything in itself. The core is built up everywhere.
I guess a better way to look at it is the person buying a new condo for $296,900+GST is comparing it to the re-sale units listed for $299,000, $315,000 and $324,900 and drawing a conclusion from there.
Or you have a brand new house in Fairfield and a one year old home in Fairfield.
New house: $1,000,000+GST
One Year old: $1,000,000 no GST
The vast majority of buyers will go for the one year old. For the new house to be competitive the all in price has to be competitive compared to the re-sale price.
Cars
New BMW $55,000+TAX
1 Year old BMW 50,000+TAX
Buyers will go for new as cars depreciate faster and they have to pay tax on the used one as well.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/housing-market-softening-everywhere-but-toronto-and-vancouver-bmo-says-1.3019181
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/housing-market-softening-everywhere-but-toronto-and-vancouver-bmo-says-1.3019181
Total misleading article on CBC right now.
Sooooo, to the guys that said I was totally out to lunch with my positive predictions of a ~15% gain in average house prices..
Well, Vancouver right now beat that already at over 16% gain over last year.
I will still state this: Victoria WILL have a ~15% uptick in average house prices this year.
Way to much demand, the only one here who actually is selling/buying houses and can see the market clearly is Marko, and he is posting that there is more activity this year then in the last 5 years for investment properties, and most places are being outbid.
So what's the Selling Price?
$300,000
$309,600
$315,000
GST is payable on the full contract price for a new residential property. If a builder wants to net $300,000.00 for a new home and the GST rate is 5% (remember it changes every once in a while) then there will be $15,000.00 of GST payable. This brings the selling price to $315,000.00. However, the buyer is, in certain cases, but not all, entitled to a rebate of 36% of the GST payable. This works out to a $5,400.00 rebate in the above situation. The buyer can pay the builder $315,000.00 on closing. Then the buyer can apply for the $5,400.00 rebate by filling out some forms and mailing them in. It takes a number of months for the rebate to arrive. In the end, the actual GST paid would be $9,600.00.
Most builders, but not all, recognize that their buyer doesn't want to front the rebate money and wait several months to get it back. Because of that, the builder will often agree to let the buyer pay the price plus the GST net of the rebate. The buyer pays $300,000.00 + $9,600.00 = $309,600.00. The buyer also signs a form to assign the rebate to the builder. Then the builder is entitled to receive the $5,400.00 rebate. Again, if this is what the builder and buyer are agreeing to, they should say so clearly in the offer and discuss it so there is no misunderstanding. A simple way to cover that would be to say that the purchase price is $309,600.00 including GST and the builder is entitled to the GST rebate. Doing this won't put more money in the pocket of the builder. It is purely an accommodation for the buyer.
If you are buying the property as a rental property, the builder cannot give you the rebate as a credit against the purchase price.
The selling price can be any of the three shown. However, the market value is what the lawyer registers at the Titles office and what BC Assessment records for the history of the property. And that's $300,000
You can have three different selling prices for the same property but only one market value.
Whats wrong with the listing on Feltham at 469k. Anyone know. Seems like a good buy.
However, the market value is what the lawyer registers at the Titles office and what BC Assessment records for the history of the property. And that's $300,000
So what you are saying is if someone buys a $500,000+GST condo (no gst rebate) the re-sale market value of that condo the following day is $500,000 and the buyer is out $25,000?
Listing on Feltham dropped down to 454k. Whats the schedule A for .
Listing on Feltham dropped down to 454k. Whats the schedule A for .
Foreclosure
@ Marko
Off topic. You know there is a number of rebates available for taxes if you build your own house?
You know there is a number of rebates available for taxes if you build your own house?
I know a couple of my friens claimed fairly big HST rebates on their owner-built homes (they bought lots+HST) but I don't know how it works with the GST now....if you are buying a lot in the core the odds are you aren't paying GST on the purchase of the lot in the first place?
GST is applicable on vacant lots of subdivision of greater than 3 lots.
That's why GST is not usually applicable on a infill lot in the City. But is applicable for a lot in a new subdivision in Bear Mountain.
If you're building your own home you would keep track of the GST inputs and outputs and apply for the rebate if any. You should always contact an accountant for the up to date tax interpretation when it comes to your personal circumstance.
The market value didn't change only the market price.
What someone pays for a property is the market price.
In most circumstances the market price is equivalent to market value. And that's where most people make the error of believing that if someone is willing to pay X, then the market value must also be X.
The market value of the condo in your example is determined by properties, other than the subject, that are selling in the marketplace. What that singular condo sold for today or yesterday has no effect on market value.
That the second buyer is willing to reimburse the first owner for the GST is a concession. Much like movable property or other assets that may also be included in the sale. The second buyer could also reimburse the first owner for the Property Purchase Tax. Movable property, GST and PPT are not considered part of Market Value.
Making it more confusing is that bank lending policies allow for the Net GST and some chattels to be included for lending purposes. That's bank policy not market value.
You should have noticed on any appraisal report that you've read that the report states the purpose and intent of the appraisal. For a mortgage appraisal that is to estimate the market value for first mortgage lending purposes by the bank of XYZ. The appraiser in their opinion of value is taking into consideration the lending policies of that bank.
Had a realtor offer 20% over assesed on our Fairfeild house cash....
"Point is municipal boundaries are just lines on the map…"
Point is those municipal boundaries cannot be moved outwards when they are ocean.
Don't take it. I had one for near 30% over assess. I'm not selling anything until 2025 at the earliest.
Not taking it. It's my building lot not theirs!
If your Fairfield home is rented, the likelihood is that the highest price you will be paid for the property is as a house on a lot. The Highest and Best Use of the property being "as improved"
If you're holding the property as a future building site, then the contributory value of the lot (value as if vacant and available) to any new home you construct will be less than the value of the property as improved.
A lot of people own properties that they consider holding lots for a new home, when it becomes economically feasible, for them to build. However, history shows us that most won't build but will sell the property as it is.
They'll take the money and not what's behind door number 2.
Of course you're not one of them. Until it comes time to build and you see that you would have a higher profit if you sold rather than built.
I might be one of them ;-) we will see.... As it sits right now someone else is willing to try but paying 150k more than I did three years ago...
Which makes my horns grow...
Another house in Gordon Head, 160k over assessment. What's going on over there?
There are only 29 houses for sale in Gordon Head. Last month there were 16 sales. That's 2 months of inventory. A balanced market has between 5 to 7 months of inventory.
During that same month only 23 houses were listed for sale. That's almost an 80 percent Sales to New Listings ratio. Again balanced would be 40 to 60 percent to allow for expired and cancelled listings.
And the median days on market was 10. Usually 30 to 90 days is considered balanced.
And that's why bidding on a home in Gordon Head is nutsville today with irrational over bidding happening on the turn key boxes.
Offers last month ranged from a low of 100% to a high of 132% of the home's assessed value with the average sales to assessment rate at 111%.
Who are the bigger fools, the ones buying the homes or the ones lending the money to buy the homes. When the market is so one sided, it would be prudent for the lenders to want higher buyer qualifications or larger down payments.
The lenders will do what will help them grow every three months...
Dasmo, you might be giving the bankers more credit than they deserve.
Lenders follow what other lenders do just as buyers follow what other buyers do.
They're reactive and not particularly proactive.
The lenders don't have the data to make an informed decision on whether a specific type of real estate or location is exhibiting irrational traits. If they did then the lender could adjust their lending policies to reduce losses and mortgage fraud. Those lenders that didn't adjust would end up taking on the higher risk clients and properties.
I also think that most of the regular readers on this blogg have a better understanding of the residential marketplace than any lender or broker in the city.
I have lived in Gordon Head for 15 years and I find it surprising. I know there are 3 sales on my street in the past month or so and all going to Asian buyers. I have a friend who is looking. Half cash is typical so lenders aren't overly concerned. Just my humble opinion. Wonder if there is spill off to what's going on in crazy Van.
That's true JJ. The banks will go where their herd takes them. On should be ready for that. I give them very little credit. For now I think the herd will be competing for more customers and thus lower rates for borrowers. The bank will turn on you in a heartbeat. Only put your neck in their noose if your feet can touch the ground AND you can bend your knees...
Money laundering might be a large factor in Vancouver and could be over flowing into Victoria. Money laundering using numbered Canadian companies, strawmen buyers and inflated prices to move money between borders could be one of BC's larger illegal businesses along with dope.
So much so that there are now police from China working in BC. Along with legislation that will allow Canada to seize property used in money laundering with the proceeds of the sale to be split between the Canadian and Chinese governments. Kinda like two mobsters getting together to split the loot.
The thought of a Mainland Chinese police force operating in BC gives me the creeps.
The Americans are now seeing Vancouver as a major money laundering city in North America with one example of a Chinese official involved in Wheat exports who bought several properties in Vancouver through his illegal activity. His wife (ex) was caught in Bellvue and they think he may be somewhere in the Caribbean.
There are some necessary characteristics of the money laundering schemes. All of them begin as CASH sales.
And now because of our seizure laws the homes would later be financed with a high ratio mortgage to buy a home in a different country such as the USA.
That means collusion between bankers, brokers, lawyers and appraisers.
OSFI regulates CMHC and are concerned that there should be greater verification done on values. But they haven't a clue on how to do it and are leaving it up to the banks to decide.
And we're back to the fox guarding the hen house.
Marko, if I may ask, what was the asking and sale price on that house you sold on San Juan Ave? Thanks.
@Curly Fry
Also, how many people actually downsize? I'm guessing a lot who downsize get places that are smaller, but not necessarily cheaper?
I've had two relatives sell their Saanich houses in the past couple of years. One was in her early 70's and the other in her early 80's. Although both houses were owned outright, the ongoing expenses (taxes, insurance, heat, etc.) were high and repairs and improvements were pending.
After selling, they were both comparatively "cash rich" and thus "set for life". Both have chosen to rent modest apartments and use their new found wealth to visit with family, take vacations that they couldn't before, etc. They are enjoying life in way that they couldn't before ...
Post
http://www.bnn.ca/Video/player.aspx?vid=582499
^ Another academic about to lose his shirt by shorting Canada, sigh.
Dasmo and Phil,
“Had a realtor offer 20% over assessed”
“I had one for near 30% over assess.”
Classic realtor trick to get listings. “What an incredible property you have. I’ve got X buyers willing to pay XXX for your place. Just sign this listing contract.” 3 months later and 3 price reductions.
I'm willing to bet that's exactly it Chris....
An eye-popping projection by Vancouver City Savings Credit Union calls for the average detached price within Vancouver’s city limits to skyrocket to $4.4-million in 2030, if pricing trends of recent years continue unabated.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/housing/the-real-estate-beat/vancouver-real-estate-prices-continue-climb-projected-to-skyrocket/article23799929/
By the end of the afternoon, more than 100 people toured the 52-year-old bungalow.
Ms. Morris began accepting bids one day after the open house, attracting 15 offers – none of them subject to financing.
“It has gone berserk,” she said. “Four of the offers were really close.”
The winning bid turned out to be $2.48-million, or nearly $2-million higher than the selling price 15 years ago. The house sold for $192,000 above the asking price of $2.288-million.
New global upper (financial not cultural) class has no borders, and our political system is bribed by communist money.
Sorry, but the days of Canadians being able to afford a home in Vancouver and (soon to be) Victoria are over.
Culturally, the current buyers put money in housing and HOLD for 20 years or more. Why would they sell if the market goes down, they know long term they will be find and they already can extract 80% of money from the house at low rates/free so the need to sell a house to 'free up' cash is now no longer needed.
Sorry to say, but there is 300 million upper middle class mobile new wealth generated just in China alone, not to mention millions more around the world, and they are super motivated, educated financially (unlike a lot of laid back Canadians) and work their asses off and are aggressive investors.
Putting a couple million cash into a world class city such as Vancouver or Victoria gets you a home, gets you 'residence', helping with immigration, you get a home to live in or rent out for cash, and you can extract 1.6 million at 3% to invest elsewhere.
If house prices dip, only a small percentage will need to sell, the rest have already 'sold' the house by extracting (half the time laundered) cash.
So anyone expecting a crash here does not understand that most places in Vancouver are paid for with cash, then HELOC'd.
It's not like the USA where they were giving lawn mowers 450k mc mansions with 2% down and no income checks and the 2% was financed also.
If you can get into the market you should, because there is not going to be a 'crash' and you will be priced out forever.
CHMC rates just went up again...
Loan-to-Value Ratio
Standard Premium
(Current)
Standard Premium
(Effective June 1st, 2015)
Up to and including 65%
0.60%
0.60%
Up to and including 75%
0.75%
0.75%
Up to and including 80%
1.25%
1.25%
Up to and including 85%
1.80%
1.80%
Up to and including 90%
2.40%
2.40%
Up to and including 95%
3.15%
3.60%
90.01% to 95% — Non-Traditional Down Payment
3.35%
3.85%
San Juan sold for $777,000 but few upgrades including in the price.
BINGO!
All under the I:
Reference to HAM
"...300 million upper middle class mobile new wealth generated just in China..."
Priced out forever.
"...you will be priced out forever."
Reference to a crash.
"... there is not going to be a 'crash'..."
It's different here.
"It's not like the USA..."
Victoria is special.
"... a world class city such as Vancouver or Victoria..."
What real estate company do you work for again?
Dave3
Those rate changes are very minor, maybe first time home buyers with 5% down (5% down is nuts, should be 25% minimum IMO to avoid market movements and underwater issues).
Maybe $750 extra for first time 5% home buyers.
Like usual, its the lower end that pays the most in our system.
@Dave.
We are different then the USA, have you been there lately???
We are world class, with 270% of water, zero land being produced.
You think that talking about super wealthy immigrants is just some kind of made up hype? Have you seen house sales lately??
You will be priced out forever... we already had our 22% correction over the last 8 years... prices are up almost 16%.
Even if housing corrects 50% most Canadians wouldn't be able to afford in Van or Vic anyways, so yes, buy now if you can or be priced out forever... the correction already happened.
I was a Realtor in Toronto before we moved here, thinking about setting up shop again with the market being so hot.
Ben Rabidoux recently linked to a China Law Blog post which mentions that China may be cracking down on transfers of money abroad. See point 5:
"...realtors told me that they have heard that China allows its citizens to transfer only $50,000 a year outside the country, but in the past Chinese home buyers have circumvented that rule by paying ten or twenty or thirty or more of their relatives and friends to each transfer $50,000 to the same bank account in the United States. Seems that all of a sudden China is stopping that...."
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2015/04/china-closes-66-golf-courses-and-why-that-really-matters.html
I doubt Chinese money affects Saanich, but the post was interesting.
Where have you been reading Ben's writing? Ever since he got snapped up by an investment firm he pretty much stopped updating his blog so I haven't been keeping up with his stuff.
Yikes! I just got an error when I tried the site.
Dave3
"We are world class, with 270% of water, zero land being produced."
What does this mean? World class compared to what?
@Dave, I just follow Ben on Twitter. I miss his blog posts too!
https://twitter.com/BenRabidoux
The market is a lot better than it has been the last 5 years but isn't that "hot" compared to the mid 2000s.
One thing I am noticing is sellers have got wind of an "improved" market and are increasing their expectations, often above current market value. I wouldn't be surprised if for April we saw a significantly lower YOY % gain in sales.
@NYK
World class on almost every level compared to anywhere on the planet, have you travelled much? Its paradise here.
As evidenced by Leo being too busy mowing his lawn to make a new post....
"I was a Realtor in Toronto before we moved here, thinking about setting up shop again with the market being so hot"
Finally. No requirement to read your posts any longer. Please stop fear mongering here.
in my opinion, people come here to benefit from the wealth of knowledge and independent thought that many posters bring to the table. If I want to read visceral one sided statements designed to drive a run to the realtors, there are many other pages out there for that.
Maybe you worked as a realtor in Toronto but no one who knows anything about anything would speak about it like you do about real estate, so I doubt you were very good, further supported by the fact that you were a realtor and moved away from the hottest real estate market on earth. what do you do now instead of selling houses?
To balance this out, I have lived in victoria for 25 years and I have definitely seen a rise in young , mostly Chinese driving fancy cars around Uvic in the last 5 years. I would think that as vancouver becomes increasingly attractive to foreign money, ubc and sfu will become increasingly competitive for the foreign money's kids. UVIC will act as a blow off for those schools and will end up with a disproportionate number of students from the vancouver housing market.
I think this will be a factor in local markets going forward, especially in Uvic adjacent areas like Henderson, oak bay, uplands, Gordon head, etc. as real estate obsessed vancouverites send their kids to school and can't resist the "cheap" prices over here.
Beyond schools though, there is little attraction in Victoria for city dwellers- this is not vancouver.
"World class on almost every level compared to anywhere on the planet, have you travelled much?"
Yes. My wife and I are both dual citizens. We've lived and worked in a few countries and several large cities typically 10-20 times the size of this one. We travel frequently and just returned from a trip recently. When I told people I was from Victoria they had never heard of it or thought I meant Victoria in Australia.
When I hear people say "World Class City" I think of cities that are influential on a global scale.
If I want to read visceral one sided statements designed to drive a run to the realtors, there are many other pages out there for that.
And if anyone wants to read visceral, one-sided statements designed to drive a run away from the realtors, read anything Just Jack writes.
I'm kinda bored so I'm re-reading this blog post (time to start a new one there Leo!) and thought I would comment on this:
It is very easy to make 150k+ for a couple in a semi professional field.
I do personal taxes. It is not EASY for couples to make $150k. This is definitely not the norm. I would say both wife and husband working, it's more common to see the husband make $80-$100k and the wife make $0-$20k. There are tons and tons of families with school-aged kids (or younger) where they rely mostly on the man's income. It's not sexist, it's just reality. The women that work full-time, many are single moms so their family income is still not that high. Finding family incomes above $150k is pretty rare. Like I said, $85-$125k seems to be more the average.
I do personal taxes. It is not EASY for couples to make $150k. This is definitely not the norm. I would say both wife and husband working, it's more common to see the husband make $80-$100k and the wife make $0-$20k. There are tons and tons of families with school-aged kids (or younger) where they rely mostly on the man's income. It's not sexist, it's just reality. The women that work full-time, many are single moms so their family income is still not that high. Finding family incomes above $150k is pretty rare. Like I said, $85-$125k seems to be more the average.
I don't know about this....was at a social function over the weekend where the five women (late 20s,early 30s) were doctor, nurse, teacher x2 (both with full time jobs), HINF (health information technology) consultant. The best jobs out of the guys there as police officer and realtor and than down hill from there.
Let's say that couples who make $150k+ often do their own personal income tax returns. So they are not as rare as you see in tax office.
Tuesday, April 7, 2015 8:00am
MTD April
2015 2014
Net Unconditional Sales: 102 664
New Listings: 223 1,521
Active Listings: 3,758 4,404
Please Note
Left Column: stats so far this month
Right Column: stats for the entire month from last year
Load More....
Leo, you seem to be busy doing hard work such that you can't start a new thread on the blog. Did you recently become a landlord?
@Curious Cat
I do personal taxes. It is not EASY for couples to make $150k. This is definitely not the norm.
Although the data is for all of Canada, according to Stats Can - in 2012 of the 8,169,080 "couple" type families, 1,395,820 (17%) earned $150K/year or more.
Source: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil106a-eng.htm
That said, there is quite a disparity between the 70% home ownership in Canada and the 17% of "couple" families earn $150K or more.
@Al + TOH
Let's say that couples who make $150k+ often do their own personal income tax returns.
Yup, I'm too cheap to pay someone to do my taxes ...
CBC News: Genworth homebuyer survey hints many new owners get cash from family
Average 1st-time buyer put down 12% up front on a $293K home, mortgage insurer says
Nearly a third of first-time homebuyers got some sort of money from their parents before making the purchase, new numbers from mortgage insurer Genworth suggest.
So true:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/people-who-dont-care-about-houses-a-threat-to-society-2015040797085
8.1 million couple families in Canada, median income 82K. Percent making over 150 K is 17%
81,000 couple families in Victoria CMA with median income of 88K. Percent making over 150 K ?? - I haven't seen this statistic.
Since our median income is higher than the Canadian overall number seems reasonable to assume there would be slightly more >150K families. If we guesstimate 20% of families are above the 150K mark in Victoria CMA then there are 16.2 thousand families in Victoria CMA making more than 150 K.
So whether making that mark is "easy" or not it is pretty common. And if you are part of one of those families you probably know lots of other families in the same boat since people tend to associate with their class "equals".
All I have to say is Load more....
I'm just passing on what I've seen. Just because those women you were referencing had good paying jobs, doesn't mean their spouse is equal to them. My sister is a nurse and makes about $80k gross depending on how much OT she does, but her husband only makes $50k-$60k. My brother is also in the health field and makes around $90k and his spouse is also a nurse, but she's on maternity leave and it's questionable if she will go back to a full-time position. It's very difficult for nurses to find childcare with their odd hours. My cousin is a teacher, but she's single. A good friend is also a teacher but her husband only makes about $40k. My father in law is a pharmacist but his wife doesn't work. My brother-in-law is an engineer but his wife doesn't work. And on and on. My own observation, is that a lot of people are settling on the $100k-$125k threshold.
I'm not afraid to disclose that my own household, we grossed $135,687 for 2014. This is mainly due to the fact that I choose to only work part-time, so I "guess" it could be easy for us to hit over $150k if I chose to simply work more.
And yes, I think people tend to socialize with people that are similar to them in status, as I don't have friends who collect welfare, nor do I have friends that are doctors.
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